Curse

JoDiamonds · Jul 04, 2005, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

that is interesting.

please tell me what and how much at what rate you would consider fair.

It's not a matter of rates, it's a matter of making a game type where everything is equal, at least according to in-game abilities (including equipment of all kinds, etc.) Obviously it's true that if everyone has everything, it's equal. It's also true that if everyone has nothing, it's equal, but that's not a good idea either.

Quote:

as a separate question how popular do you think an unlock everything arena would be if there was no
ranking
reward
or record of the match

simply play for the fun of it wide open

I think people would play it quite extensively, for multiple reasons:

1) Just for fun, to do wacky things and try skills they don't have available on other characters (whether PvP or PvE).

2) For practice and testing. Trying out new skills before you spend valuable faction points on them seems quite useful. More generally, I think serious teams would be very happy to practice in an unrated format.

Siran Dunmorgan · Jul 04, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Also, I find it rather odd that the characters will move from the random arenas to the team arenas after a certain number of wins.

Basically, this means that if a character hasn't ascended, for whatever reason, they could in theory get on a good team and get sent to the team arenas. Then they would most likely lose, but the character would be dropped off in Droknar's Forge, skipping a large portion of the game content.

Actually, this is exactly what happens—there's no 'in theory' about it.

However, I'm also pretty sure the developers consider this a bug, and will be fixing it sooner, rather than later.

—Siran Dunmorgan

Phades · Jul 04, 2005, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan

Actually, this is exactly what happens—there's no 'in theory' about it.

However, I'm also pretty sure the developers consider this a bug, and will be fixing it sooner, rather than later.

—Siran Dunmorgan

The theory part is the under level 20 or pre-ascended character in a team beating a group of pvp characters with optimal setups and gear 10 times in a row.

Phades · Jul 04, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

I know what you mean, I did play planetside for a while but I got tired of it. Seemed like a good idea that fell in the wrong place.

I know the idea's been done before in other games, but all those games had several major flaws that aren't present in Guild Wars. Which is why I'd love to see it.

I like the idea Loviatar tossed out (to get more on topic)

Seems to me like that would please a fair amount of people.

There is no way that the GW server could handle the same kind of scale or stress you are suggesting, based on the behavior ive seen in the arenas and in the tombs.

GW does have the same problems, but they are just less exaggerated than in other games. This is party due to the scale and partly due to some sembalance of struture within it.

*You would have a case of the curse of planetside following you, because you love the idea, but cant find it executed properly. The gaming group of guys ive been hanging with for the past few years have been re-using that term as they get burnt out on new games or cant find something in the same scale.

PieXags · Jul 04, 2005, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Do you know what problems I'm talking about? I'm talking about high levels raping 30 low lvls and not getting touched in the process, I'm talking about someone having one item that can beat 10 other people. That sort of thing isn't found in guild wars, it would be fair, since everyone can get a lvl 20 and/or already has one (problably multiple ones) with so many people it would NOT depend so much on gear, and it would actually be fun problably encouraging more people to do some PvP.

The only problem with the idea isn't gameplay flaws you'd encounter, it's implementation. It'd problably hard as hell to implement but it can be done. Just look at the tombs, you've got like 6 teams of 8 in there all the time and I don't get an ounce of lag, ever. You could add more people and a bigger landscape, and just have bigger battles. I know 30vs30 wouldn't be a problem for GW, not by any means, and chances are battles would be so spread out (if you've ever played a game with the sort of system) that lag wouldn't be a major issue anyway. Take RYL for example, PvP system = big enviornment, two sides, they clash anywhere from the middle of it all to opposing outposts, etc. No "alright 4vs4 countdown timer", just, there's the bad guys, kick their asses.

GW could make it work, districts is also an option, as are transitions in the enviornment.

Phades · Jul 04, 2005, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Do you know what problems I'm talking about? I'm talking about high levels raping 30 low lvls and not getting touched in the process, I'm talking about someone having one item that can beat 10 other people. That sort of thing isn't found in guild wars, it would be fair, since everyone can get a lvl 20 and/or already has one (problably multiple ones) with so many people it would NOT depend so much on gear, and it would actually be fun problably encouraging more people to do some PvP.

The only problem with the idea isn't gameplay flaws you'd encounter, it's implementation. It'd problably hard as hell to implement but it can be done. Just look at the tombs, you've got like 6 teams of 8 in there all the time and I don't get an ounce of lag, ever. You could add more people and a bigger landscape, and just have bigger battles. I know 30vs30 wouldn't be a problem for GW, not by any means, and chances are battles would be so spread out (if you've ever played a game with the sort of system) that lag wouldn't be a major issue anyway. Take RYL for example, PvP system = big enviornment, two sides, they clash anywhere from the middle of it all to opposing outposts, etc. No "alright 4vs4 countdown timer", just, there's the bad guys, kick their asses.

GW could make it work, districts is also an option, as are transitions in the enviornment.

Ok first off, the level difference isnt what im talking about, im talking about having a difference in base equipment and skills. These two things make and break characters, in many instances there might as well be a 50 level gap, because it wouldnt make much of a difference and only speed along the process.

I believe you have also never encountered the yo-yo effect aka rubber banding in flat and open terrain. This tends to happen more durring prime time, where the server does not track movement properly and throws or pulls the character into another location. This also occurs with logic errros with melee attacks and moving along with moving and non-aoe effects from range. Ever see a lightning orb miss by more than 7 steps and still do damage? I have and i wasnt the one skipping around the screen that match either, the same kind of issue occurs with the no skill listing with the character name in pvp... Really nice when you have been watching the same character all match long and their bar would appear that they never use a skill or it pops up only after the skill has been used. The lag you are talking about is client side based, which varies from person to person, but is very different from connection and server issues. That is not lag, that is framerate, lag is inconsitantcies in server<->client prediction and latency.

Also, the game wouldnt work in their server setup with any kind of persisting world environment.

PieXags · Jul 05, 2005, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Not the way they have it now, but I'm not asking for them to keep it like it is now am I?

And trust me...I've encountered that shit many times before, 8 months of my life in the RYL betas, they used a very similar PvP system to what I'm explaining, and everyone loved it, it was a lot of fun. Only problem was lag, but the lag wasn't all that bad unless you had about 200 people on your screen which rarely, if ever, happened. GW DOES have the system that would allow them to even out the amount of people in one place at one time, they do it now with districts.

You're not getting my point about gear either, the point is it doesn't MATTER if you go in with what they give you in PvP or something because with so many people that difference won't matter anyway. Sure it's going to matter if you're still using ascalon armor but who in their right mind would go up against 40 lvl 20's with ascalon armor?

I believe I've encountered a hell of a lot more server-side errors than you think, hell just yesterday I was firing arrow 20ft away from where the guy was, and still doing damage. Hell in RYL you'd spend a long while trying to figure out who was a bad guy and who was a good guy because name colors/listings wouldn't show up properly when people died/spawned, etc.

You don't seem to get my point, I know very well that it wouldn't work with their current system. How the hell could it when they're used to 8vs8 guild skirmishes? I'm not asking them to keep the system, as anyone could tell by reading the idea, you're going to need to change some things, like you would implementing any new idea, especially one of this magnitude.

All you seem to be doing though is saying "It won't work in the current system"...yeah, we know. We're not asking for the same system, it's called change. And lets also see that there are two threads in the sanitarium about the idea, both of them reached multiple pages and not a single negative comment was found about the idea, everyone I've spoken to would adore an actual ongoing war in this game without the arena/tournament system they have now, that has little or no motivation behind it.

We KNOW it would be difficult as hell to put in the game, so quit stressing the point, please. The idea is what I tossed out, and the idea is what would make it great.

I wonder if the original point to this thread even exists anymore, it's changed so many times I don't even know. It's moving off-topic though for sure with this one, I should go revive my old sanitarium thread.

Phades · Jul 05, 2005, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

Not the way they have it now, but I'm not asking for them to keep it like it is now am I?

And trust me...I've encountered that shit many times before, 8 months of my life in the RYL betas, they used a very similar PvP system to what I'm explaining, and everyone loved it, it was a lot of fun. Only problem was lag, but the lag wasn't all that bad unless you had about 200 people on your screen which rarely, if ever, happened. GW DOES have the system that would allow them to even out the amount of people in one place at one time, they do it now with districts.

You're not getting my point about gear either, the point is it doesn't MATTER if you go in with what they give you in PvP or something because with so many people that difference won't matter anyway. Sure it's going to matter if you're still using ascalon armor but who in their right mind would go up against 40 lvl 20's with ascalon armor?

I believe I've encountered a hell of a lot more server-side errors than you think, hell just yesterday I was firing arrow 20ft away from where the guy was, and still doing damage. Hell in RYL you'd spend a long while trying to figure out who was a bad guy and who was a good guy because name colors/listings wouldn't show up properly when people died/spawned, etc.

You don't seem to get my point, I know very well that it wouldn't work with their current system. How the hell could it when they're used to 8vs8 guild skirmishes? I'm not asking them to keep the system, as anyone could tell by reading the idea, you're going to need to change some things, like you would implementing any new idea, especially one of this magnitude.

All you seem to be doing though is saying "It won't work in the current system"...yeah, we know. We're not asking for the same system, it's called change. And lets also see that there are two threads in the sanitarium about the idea, both of them reached multiple pages and not a single negative comment was found about the idea, everyone I've spoken to would adore an actual ongoing war in this game without the arena/tournament system they have now, that has little or no motivation behind it.

We KNOW it would be difficult as hell to put in the game, so quit stressing the point, please. The idea is what I tossed out, and the idea is what would make it great.

I wonder if the original point to this thread even exists anymore, it's changed so many times I don't even know. It's moving off-topic though for sure with this one, I should go revive my old sanitarium thread.

I think we are somehow arguing apples to oranges in terms of just definition. Generally when somone states equipment imbalance, ill take that as tools used to complete a task that are aquirable, which would place skills in GW as equipment. Level is a seperate issue, which only enhances the magnitude of success of the tools available. This was my commentary regarding structure earlier. The magnitude is roughtly the same, but equipment will enhance that magnitude. This is where the weapon fittings and runes come into play. Take a newer account on a pre-made template with no runes or fittings vs an older account with a custom build and the top end runes, fittings, and skills. The difference in effect will be quite noticable.

I only made my comment about persisting worlds is that id doubt that arena net will choose to change their server to client setup with their existing unique world instancing.

Divinitys Creature · Jul 05, 2005, 04:40 AM // 04:40

There is the small matter of Faction rewards being so dreadfully out of whack (by a factor of over 10). Refer to thread title.

Tuna · Jul 05, 2005, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

There is the small matter of Faction rewards being so dreadfully out of whack (by a factor of over 10). Refer to thread title.

I'm suddenly inspired to do some calculations

There are roughly 450 skills, 90 of which are elite. Elites cost 3000 while regular skills cost 1000. 90 x 3000 = 270,000 and 360 x 1000 = 360,000. 270000 + 360000 = 630,000

Thats Six Hundred and Thirty Thousand (630,000) faction. You get roughly 16 per arena win, ~100 (large estimate average) from tombs, and about 380 from GvG. Thats 39,375 arena wins, 6,300 tombs wins or 1,658 GvG wins to unlock all the skills. Now if we take into account loses each number will roughly double. Thats a lot of PvP matches. A lot. 40 to 80 thousand arena matches doesn't sound like fun to me.

I'm not sure how many weapon upgrades there are and I'd rather not calculate runes, but its a fair bet that there are another couple thousand tombs wins needed to get 'em.

Red Locust · Jul 05, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

But you can get over 75% of all nonelites by doing skill quests that are dead easy once you hit lvl 20 and go back to do them. That cuts the time down by a lot. And I'd rather use skill points and cap elites than waste 3000 faction on them.

Tuna · Jul 05, 2005, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

But you can get over 75% of all nonelites by doing skill quests that are dead easy once you hit lvl 20 and go back to do them. That cuts the time down by a lot. And I'd rather use skill points and cap elites than waste 3000 faction on them.

This is why I still argue for UAS. You can either grind out 630,000 faction or 400 hours of PvE. The PvE is probably faster.

The Ages · Jul 05, 2005, 07:15 AM // 07:15

PvP I think is faster for Runes as it cuts the random factor down alot, Skills on the other hand are almost pointless (Except for that elite you cant find) Sense Obtaining them in a PvE setting is far more simple and you oftain get more than one skill, Sense you have to PvE up till Draknors for the Priest chances are you have came across most the skill quest anyway. (Or even the Skill Trainer what is oftain more easy than Faction point Gaining for the more Casual PvPers.)

Phades · Jul 05, 2005, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I'm suddenly inspired to do some calculations

There are roughly 450 skills, 90 of which are elite. Elites cost 3000 while regular skills cost 1000. 90 x 3000 = 270,000 and 360 x 1000 = 360,000. 270000 + 360000 = 630,000

Thats Six Hundred and Thirty Thousand (630,000) faction. You get roughly 16 per arena win, ~100 (large estimate average) from tombs, and about 380 from GvG. Thats 39,375 arena wins, 6,300 tombs wins or 1,658 GvG wins to unlock all the skills. Now if we take into account loses each number will roughly double. Thats a lot of PvP matches. A lot. 40 to 80 thousand arena matches doesn't sound like fun to me.

I'm not sure how many weapon upgrades there are and I'd rather not calculate runes, but its a fair bet that there are another couple thousand tombs wins needed to get 'em.

That is also assuming no drop outs, crashes, ect. The drop out rate seems to have gone up in the more random groups ive encountered lately. Thus denying a portion of the points going towards faction, by either screwing the other team out of your death points or by screwing your own out of any real chance of getting any points.

Personally id only unlock some of the more pain in the but to get to skills and save most of it for runes, but that doesnt help my PvE character at all really, even though he is doing all of the PvP. This is counter intuitive on some levels, but at least i can remove some of the variable in aquiring a couple of the more annoying to get mods.

JasonJLore · Jul 05, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

There are roughly 450 skills, 90 of which are elite. Elites cost 3000 while regular skills cost 1000. 90 x 3000 = 270,000 and 360 x 1000 = 360,000. 270000 + 360000 = 630,000

Thats Six Hundred and Thirty Thousand (630,000) faction. You get roughly 16 per arena win, ~100 (large estimate average) from tombs, and about 380 from GvG. Thats 39,375 arena wins, 6,300 tombs wins or 1,658 GvG wins to unlock all the skills. Now if we take into account loses each number will roughly double. Thats a lot of PvP matches. A lot. 40 to 80 thousand arena matches doesn't sound like fun to me.

I'm not sure how many weapon upgrades there are and I'd rather not calculate runes, but its a fair bet that there are another couple thousand tombs wins needed to get 'em.

Great calculating Tuna and a great way to make a point. Here's the thing with having a UAX button. It's not about equipment, it's not about skills, it's not about runes. It's about opportunity. Having the opportunity to compete against an elite team and have a chance for success. It's about letting the casual player have a chance against a person who doesn't work a full time job, who doesn't have a family, who has the time to play 5 or 6 or 7 hours a day. This has from the beginning been touted as a "competitive" MMO. Let it be. Is this not the land of opportunity?

Divinitys Creature · Jul 06, 2005, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Exactly right. Glad we are back on topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I'm suddenly inspired to do some calculations

There are roughly 450 skills, 90 of which are elite. Elites cost 3000 while regular skills cost 1000. 90 x 3000 = 270,000 and 360 x 1000 = 360,000. 270000 + 360000 = 630,000

Thats Six Hundred and Thirty Thousand (630,000) faction. You get roughly 16 per arena win, ~100 (large estimate average) from tombs, and about 380 from GvG. Thats 39,375 arena wins, 6,300 tombs wins or 1,658 GvG wins to unlock all the skills. Now if we take into account loses each number will roughly double. Thats a lot of PvP matches. A lot. 40 to 80 thousand arena matches doesn't sound like fun to me.

I'm not sure how many weapon upgrades there are and I'd rather not calculate runes, but its a fair bet that there are another couple thousand tombs wins needed to get 'em.

We have been accumulating data and calulations like these over at The Guild Hall. I usually post links to these in my sig. Will see what I can do here for now it seems you can check the link in my profile but that's just one post of many. Anyways we seem to be finding that in rough calculations and models we have an order of magnitude of a factor of 10 error in faction rewards/cost and actual calculations from data range from factors of 10 to 18.

Sythion · Jul 06, 2005, 09:46 PM // 21:46

I PvP and I PvE a lot. I've gone through a lot of effort unlocking skills in PvE environment, but I enjoy the play of PvP more. Given the choice from the getgo, I would have unlocked skills in PvP instead. Regardless, I've ascended 3 characters and have all classes covered. If all my effort was wasted by removing the barriers of the game and granting access to all skills I would be FURIOUS.

Remember, this isn't two seperate games. Many people don't play it JUST for the PvP or JUST for the PvE. I for one enjoy both the strategic gameplay of PvP, and the thrill of getting and trying a new elite skill. Please don't ruin this game for me by giving everyone access to all skills in PvP.

CleverAlias · Jul 06, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sythion

I PvP and I PvE a lot. I've gone through a lot of effort unlocking skills in PvE environment, but I enjoy the play of PvP more. Given the choice from the getgo, I would have unlocked skills in PvP instead. Regardless, I've ascended 3 characters and have all classes covered. If all my effort was wasted by removing the barriers of the game and granting access to all skills I would be FURIOUS.

Remember, this isn't two seperate games. Many people don't play it JUST for the PvP or JUST for the PvE. I for one enjoy both the strategic gameplay of PvP, and the thrill of getting and trying a new elite skill. Please don't ruin this game for me by giving everyone access to all skills in PvP.

I would have to agree. I spent well over 100 hours just unlocking skills in pve, but PVP has always been my favorite gametype. I love this new update, dispite what OP says, not all PVPers hate it.

Stev0 · Jul 06, 2005, 11:04 PM // 23:04

I think of this game more along the lines of a magic the gathering type game where not everyone can have all the cards. The skills and equipment are like Common, Uncommon and Rare cards. It all comes down to how people can build the best deck. You open up packs and get great cards or you get crap. But it's all on what you do with that crap.

I think only people who have actually played these types of card games can understand it and look at it in this way.

If everyone had all the cards. Everyone would use the same decks and the hands would all be the same.

Also. If you could have everything then there would be nothing to have and no reason to really want anything. The end result would be boredom, pointless and endless boredom.

arredondo · Jul 07, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sythion

I PvP and I PvE a lot. I've gone through a lot of effort unlocking skills in PvE environment, but I enjoy the play of PvP more. Given the choice from the getgo, I would have unlocked skills in PvP instead. Regardless, I've ascended 3 characters and have all classes covered. If all my effort was wasted by removing the barriers of the game and granting access to all skills I would be FURIOUS.

Remember, this isn't two seperate games. Many people don't play it JUST for the PvP or JUST for the PvE. I for one enjoy both the strategic gameplay of PvP, and the thrill of getting and trying a new elite skill. Please don't ruin this game for me by giving everyone access to all skills in PvP.

I PvP and PvE a lot. I've gone through a lot of effort getting wins in the PvP environment. If all my effort was wasted by removing the barriers of the game and granting access to all PvE areas, missions and quests without having to win thousands of PvP matches, I would be FURIOUS.

Oh wait... that's already how the biased set up already is. You can PvE all day and not be forced into any PvP play mechanics except once, and some of you act like it's a Constitutional law to not allow that same level of freedom to those who wish to PvP with no PvE play mechanics. Fact is, when it comes to competition, one main purpose of the rules is to allow pure skill to face pure skill with no uneven league influences. You're defending the undefendable because you want to force PvE adventure 'unlocking' mechanics in an area where it goes completely against what skillful competiion is all about.

A player's quote from any team competition:

"We'll beat you.. Why? Because we've worked on our tactics, improved our abilities, planned our strategy, honned our skills and know how to work well with each other as a team."

An opposing player's response if that competition is Guild Wars:

"Actually, we'll beat you... Why? We went through PvE six times each to quickly get access to everything in under 600 hours. With our spike build and powerful team heals, we all know you haven't unlocked anything yet that can stop us."

Sure, keep the system the same. We don't need pure skill to determine who's best. Pure skill that's used in every other competitive activity is so over rated. Especially when you can get Arena.net to give you an advantage after you've pleased them by grinding more hours than the next guy in order to be artificially better. Three cheers for my favorite Arena.net quote from their own website:

Quote:

Built for Competition

The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing...